Saturday, March 28, 2009

2. What Scott Lively said on Spectrum, Radio One, Uganda

“Tracing the origins of homosexuality, how can we handle the challenge?”

© Radio One FM 90, Wednesday 4 March 2009

KRS: Dr Scott Lively coined the phrase, “There is no shame in believing a lie until you learn the truth” [in other words it becomes shameful to continue believing the lie once you find out the truth]. You have written this booklet, “Defeating ‘gay’ arguments with simple logic.” Tell us as a human rights advocate and author, how did you become interested in this issue.?


Dr Lively: I was an alcoholic and drug addict and I became Christian and was healed through prayer. I began to recognise that there was a design in the world, and part of it is the way human beings are made. When we follow that design, as men and women when we join together in marriage and devote ourselves to our spouse and children we reap good fruit for ourselves and for society. If we turn away from that design we are against the way our bodies are made and we reap bad fruit. In the United States and around the world there is an aggressive political movement working to change the culture oriented toward marriage and family and to shift it towards moral anarchy where there are no restrictions on sexual behaviour except the concept of consent.


KRS: You said world wide, is it becoming a particular problem for Africa, is that why you are here? You first came in 2002?


Dr Lively: I came in 2002 and 2003 and I spoke against pornography which is used by the ‘gay’ movement to soften up the population. The ‘gay’ movement has done this all over the world. It corrupts the morality of the heterosexual population so that they would be more accepting of homosexual behaviour if they themselves had strayed outside their marriages.


KRS: How much research has been done in to this view?


Dr Lively: It is manifest, …if you have watched the transformation of the society. Most is my own personal research and observation of American society. It is important to note that while it took an enormously long time in the United States, it is happening very rapidly elsewhere. For example Brazil is the most pro-‘‘gay’’ nation on earth today whereas 5 or 10 years ago it would not have seemed possible and they followed the same pattern that they are now following here in Uganda and that they followed elsewhere in the world. I was communicating with a Brazilian pro-family activist [i.e. anti-’gay’ culture. Ed] last week (March 2009) who has had to flee Brazil to avoid arrest for speaking against the homosexual culture. The ‘gay’ agenda is about taking power and actively suppressing and silencing anyone who dares to speak against them. Where the ‘gay’s have the greatest amount of power is where there is the greatest persecution of those who disagree with them.


KRS: I read some research that suggests in any society, there are at most 5% homosexuals in the population, is that correct?


Dr Lively: Those are backward-looking studies in societies where there has always been a resistance to homosexual behaviour…. What I have noticed in the USA in high schools there is a dramatic escalation of “gay” behaviour or identity. They act ‘‘gay’’ whether they may not be engaging in the acts themselves and they often call themselves bi-sexual, 12-15 year old children. So I do not believe there is a ceiling on the number of people who would take part in this behaviour. Look at a prison populations, the ‘‘gay’’ percentage there is much higher than 5 or 6%. Many of those may not be homosexual in their orientation/desire but they will engage in homosexuality if the society they are in provides for it.


KRS: Let me take you back a bit. What is it you are saying happened in Brazil in the last few years?


Dr Lively: This is a cultural transformation that occurs. There are two competing philosophies, the Judeo-Christian world view – which is that we are created as heterosexual beings and culture has a responsibility to reinforce and affirm that culture to preserve it - even non-Christians mostly accept that we are made according to a design, that there is an external moral order that we are subject to, that society works best when marriage and family occur. In contradiction to that there is the position that there should be no restrictions on sexual behaviour and that human beings make up their own rules and that we can change them at will. Wherever the rules are changed, you see an immediate breakdown of family values. Not everyone is behaving immorally but the levels can rise so high they overwhelm society.


KRS: You say there is nothing normal about homosexuality?


Dr Lively: Pope John Paul II put is best when he said it is ‘intrinsically disordered’. That means it is dysfunctional in relation to the design of our bodies. That is self-evident. Our sexuality is primarily for reproduction and then also to cement our marriages.


KRS: What do say to the argument that homosexuals are born that way?


Dr Lively: I do not think most people who have a same sex attraction choose to have it. However it is their choice to pursue those feelings or to oppose them in themselves. There are three causes of homosexuality (Dr Lively says he has been studying this for 20 years) the primary cause is sexual abuse as a child. The secondary cause is sexual identity disorder. Children first learn that they are separate from their parents, then they learn that there are different genders. At this point, for example, if a boy is a child of a wife-beater, he may reject walking and talking and being like his father i.e. rejecting his father’s sexuality and adopting a feminine orientation and behave more like Mummy with whom he has empathy. There is no sexuality about it at that stage. But later at puberty that boy may look at people of the same gender as sexual objects.

And then he ‘remember’ that he was always like that.


KRS: How wide-spread is the discussion about this question today – analytical, medical, psychological - in the USA?


Dr Lively: Minimal because there is a lot of hostility. www.narth.com. is the website for professionals who treat individuals who want to recover from homosexuality. However the profession has been taken over by activists and people no longer say homosexuality is abnormal and needs treatment anymore because of the price you pay for saying so. Society in the USA is so politically correct that few people dare to say homosexuality is abnormal anymore. People have gone to jail in different countries for stating the opinion that homosexuality is abnormal. The most you hear from the pro-family side is a defence of marriage but they fear to go further than that. (see box about persecution of pro-family activists)


KRS: You are obviously a very religious man but if you were not a Christian would you still hold these views on homosexuality?


Dr Lively: Yes, in my booklet “Defeating ‘‘gay’’ arguments with pure logic” my reasoning is purely secular (not religious) reasoning. It is based on the formulator of the natural law - Aristotle You can tell the purpose of any individual thing by its design and function, for instance the eye was made to see. Aristotle was a purely secular man. The human body was not designed for homosexual acts. Rather homosexuality is people struggling with a deficiency in their own gender identity, to fill the gaps by bonding with someone of the same gender.
A caller called in to say that he believes in liberal ideology but that homosexuals are taking things too far. He added that they are relying on is their money-power and our weak laws.


Dr Lively: This is not a liberal versus conservative position. We are talking about the future of Society. What kind of society do you want? I want a strong society where young men and women grow up believing they will have healthy heterosexual marriages and that the society around them will continually affirm what they have chosen; i.e. that you hold your sexuality as a gift to the person you are going to spend your life with.


KRS: Dr Lively, you are a Christian although you are not Catholic but you have quoted a former Pope…


Dr Lively: Yes, I am respectful of other religions.
KRS: How do you explain the fact that some other religious leaders who have spoken out in favour of homosexuality?


Dr Lively: There is never any guarantee that any Christian is going to remain true to God’s teachings, no matter how high they rise in the hierarchy. Whether you are right or wrong does not depend on your credentials. There have been books written, so-called ‘‘gay’’ theology and they are deceitful. They have twisted the Scriptures and attempted to justify the ‘gay’ identity from the Bible. They are not true to the Word of God. Romans chapter 1 says the Truth of God is revealed from Heaven clearly and people have no excuse for failing to recognize God Himself and that people will suppress the Truth in unrighteousness in order to suit themselves and as a result of that they are given over to a reprobate mind and as a result of that they reap terrible consequences in their lives. And a society that does that reaps the same thing.


KRS: It is curious that many Christians, all basing their arguments on the same Bible come up with so many different views. We have some public figures in our national lives, not least the Minister of Ethics and Integrity who has come out against homosexuality and pornography and even women wearing short dresses. Homosexuality is deemed a criminal act in Ugandan law Do you see Uganda being under the same sort of threat to its values as trace in America between the 1940 and 1970s?.


Dr Lively: It is definitely unfolding as we speak. Last year (2008) an attempt was made to push through Uganda’s Parliament, an anti-discrimination law based on sexual orientation. That is an extremely devious political move that has been used at the beginning stages of transformation of all societies that later became pro-‘gay’. It always begins with the promotion of the idea that homosexuality is innate (inborn) and unchangeable. It is usually started by someone in the media, or a celebrity of some kind, softening especially the young people. [The argument is] if homosexuals are born that way then it is unfair to force them to conform to the rules that everyone has to follow.


KRS: But isn’t sexuality something the Universal Declaration of Human Rights pronounces on?


Dr Lively: It has been a while since I read it but I did study International Human Rights and in the history of human rights there has never been an endorsement of homosexuality. There has always been an endorsement of family life – even the ancient codes including the Old Testament, until the European Union policy of recent years.


KRS: According to the model you present, as things unfold, what are the next steps for Uganda? What do you recommend should be done?


Dr Lively: There is a strong opposition to homosexuality here that they do not have in other countries but they will work to erode that. There will be increasing promotion of homosexuality and increasing introduction of the philosophy of sexual freedom as a personal value at university level and through media. There will be an attempt to turn politicians to their side by bribery, blackmail etc until there are enough [legislators/MPs] to lay the legal groundwork. That always means an anti-discrimination policy will be passed as law, because in it is the idea that homosexuality is an unchanging condition.


KRS: Two months ago court awarded a couple of young people a large some of money because they said they were a ‘gay’ couple and the police raided their home and subjected one of them to a check of her gender. They got the award. Is that part of the process you are talking about?


Dr Lively: Yes. Let me say first of all, I believe, people who call themselves homosexuals should be left alone if they keep to themselves. I do not support the idea of pursuing them behind the closed doors of their bedrooms... that is a violation of basic human rights. But they are not staying behind closed doors. They are working to transform society. This is not even about acceptance but it is about power, the power to punish those who have through the course of their lives upset them by saying what they are doing is wrong. That is the end, before that there is a series of steps that have already begun here in Uganda.


KRS: What do you recommend should be done?


Dr Lively: Two things. Number one actively promote ex- ‘gay’ ministries. The treatment of homosexuality. Everyone should have the opportunity to have the best life has to offer. Number 2 establish laws that reaffirm family life. For example a policy that requires schools to teach children age-appropriate lessons about thinking about marriage and how to be the best husband or wife possible so that the generation coming up will be immune to the homosexual agenda. If the homosexuals were able to get their Bill introduced last year it means they are pretty powerful already.


KRS: Where would the resources come from? Where are their headquarters.


Dr Lively: The curriculum for existing public schools. it is just a matter of putting the guidance in place.


KRS: Who are the people promoting the '‘gay’' agenda?


Dr Lively: In a society like this where it is illegal it would be hard to know.


KRS: Are there international links with people in your country.?


Dr Lively: Absolutely, there are international activists. I do not know the names. ..



RELATED NEWS


Daily Telegraph, UK, Date: 07-Mar-2009
Parents who took their children out of school in protest at them being taught about ‘gay’, bisexual and transgender history could be prosecuted.
…about 30 children who had been taken out of classes during the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Week after parents objected to their youngsters being encouraged to "celebrate the lives and achievements of lesbian, ‘gay’, bisexual and trans people in the community". Council bosses said the protest resulted in around 30 primary pupils missing school and had "taken action" against parents who pulled their children out of George Tomlinson School in Leytonstone, east London, but refused to state what sanctions are being taken.